Ramblings on Hell
Recently got into an interesting discussion via email with a traditional seminary trained friend. This guy loves God and I love to talk to him about theological issues.
His email in Block Quotes…my responses not block quote.
Came across a great quote…fits into our discussion from the other day.
“We are in a battle between dullness and astonishment. The most critical issues facing Christianity are not Bush and pornography, disintegration of the family, moral absolutes, MTV, drugs, racism, sexuality or school prayer. The critical issue today is dullness. We have lost our astonishment. The Good News is no longer Good News; it’s Ok News. Christianity is no longer life changing; it’s life enhancing. Jesus doesn’t change people into wide-eyed radicals anymore. He changes them into nice people.”
We do need to be radical, all the while holding to the absolute conviction that there is such a thing as absolute truth. One of the keys for me is this: If there is no such thing as objective truth then all is subjective and we can work it up however we wish. Truth becomes relative and changeable.
The danger of many is that they have heard the Spirit speak to them things that contradict the objective truth of the word of God. Check out Joseph Smith and that cat named Muhammad, who thought he was demon possessed. The latter should have stuck with his first intuition. . .
If there is no objective truth such as what many claim as the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments then there is not much point in being a Christian as it is all subject to being in error. Thus the truth is unknowable and life is a crapshoot where we can all just hope we have not believed in vain.
Yes, we want to make sure we “rightly handle the word of truth.” We want to not simply buy into what we hear from others and have our ears “tickled.” We want to avoid foolish controversies which breed quarrels. We want to have more than just an appearance of godliness, absent of real power. At least we should want these things. What we should not want it to be in the camp with those who will not endure sound doctrine. According to Paul he said the time would come when people would not endure sound teaching but accumulate teachers that would tickle their ears and feed their won passions, wandering into myths, etc.
Ok so I am rambling now. . . is not the key to study ourselves the objective truth? But is that enough? Can we pay attention to other spirit-filled folks (I mean truly) whom God has spoken to as they have also studied the Scriptures and written about them. I have known many a folk who will pay no attention to theology or anything written by others. In ignoring the study of others in the body of Jesus they have produced wacky conclusions that are subjective and at times contradict what I call the objective truth of other scriptures. Ok, I am done. Sure you will have a response in time!
Oh, I have a response alright.
First off, nice rant….perhaps the beginning of a devotion?
Ok. So, clearly, there IS absolute truth. Bear with me, while I wax philosophical. Let’s look at some truths that I believe you and I will both agree on (and these are by no means meant to cover ALL truth):
Jesus…Son of Man, God Incarnate come to earth.
Jesus…bearer of our sins.
Jesus…through whom we find our redemption to God through His death and resurrection.
God, creator of the universe.
God, creator of mankind
God, Holiest of Holies.
Pretty easy stuff, IF you believe that the Bible is God’s word…not WORD. Jesus was the Word.
Now, let us move on the the things that seem to be less clearly defined, at least to me.
The doctrine of Hell.
What is our mission on earth as followers of Jesus? What is it that God would have us do, or not do?
What DID Jesus mean when he said “The Kingdom of God is at hand”? Is it as simple as God’s Authority, His Reign, His Sovereignty? God’s Kindom (authority, rule etc) has ALWAYS been. That, my friend, is an absolute truth.
Now, even less clear to the larger Christian community.
What IS our response to the world’s ills? Lack of knowledge of God, poverty, sickness, mental illness, consumerism, etc. Is it the 4 spiritual laws? Feeding the hungry? Homeschooling our children? To overuse a ridiculous phrase-WWJD?
So?
I agree that in a vacuum, we can interpret scripture any old way we want. We must do it with the Spirit, and in community. Everyone brings their own “lens” to the interpretation.
Hell = a place of eternal conscious punishment for the wicked.
1. Matthew 25:30: from a parable mind you — “cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness–weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Same in Matthew 8:12 not in parable form. Same phrase in Matthew 13:41-42: added is the teaching that all lawbreakers will be thrown into the fiery furnace. Matt 24:51 also mentions a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. Also Matthew 25:30: end of a parable.
2. Matthew 25:4: “Depart from me cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” Spoken to the goats. Not a parable. Spoken as punishment for those who failed to do certain things to the least of these.
3. Defined as the unquenchable fire by Jesus in Mark 9:44, 47: There the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
4. Revelation 14:9-11: “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night.”
5. The wrath of God remains on him who does not obey the Son: John 3:36– not a proof of a place called hell but of the certainty of wrath for some.
6. 2 Thess 1:7-9: Jesus will inflict vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the Gospel of Jesus–punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord. Jesus delivers believers from the wrath to come. 1 Thess 1:10. Again, not a proof here of a place called hell. But the idea of is continual penalty that never ends out of God’s presence and involves wrath.
7. There is coming a day of judgement and destruction of the ungodly according to 2 Peter 3:7
8. Of course many other passages deal with God’s wrath and fury coming to some. The gloom of utter darkness has been reserved for some according to Jude.
9. Lake of fire described as a place of torment day and night forever and ever in Rev 20:10
10. Smoke goes up from wicked babylon forever and ever in Revelation 19. Compare the eternal fire prepared for the devil andhis angels in Matthew 25:41 into which unbelievers are cast.
“The idea that there will be eternal conscious punishment of unbelievers has been denied recently even by some evangelical theologians. It has previously been denied by the Seventh Day Adventist Church and by various individuals throughout church history.” Wayne Grudem
Why is the Lord delaying his return? He does not wish any to perish.
This material gathered from Sytematic Theology by Wayne Grudem, chapter 56 on The Final Judgment and Eternal Punishment. This is one of the best Systematic Theologies available today and can be purchased used at www.bookfinder.com
Ok. Questions.
In Matthew 25:30 , 8:12 AND 22:13 My limited understanding here is that “outer” as used here, is only used those 3 time in the NT. However, the same word is used quite a lot in the OT to describe the outer courts or outer gate of the temple.
The word “darkness”, used often seems that it could mean ANY of the following.
physical darkness
intellectual darkness
moral or spiritual darkness
or “hell” the place of punishment.
So, just asking, couldn’t these verses to be translated or read to say, for example, in Matt 25:30
And throw that worthless servant out “into the farthest reaches of spiritual blindness” where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matt 18:8, 25:41 “eternal fire”
(originally Ge bene Hinnom; i.e., “the valley of the sons of Hinnom”), a deep, narrow glen to the south of Jerusalem, where the idolatrous Jews offered their children in sacrifice to Molech (2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6; Jeremiah 7:31; 19:2-6). This valley afterwards became the common receptacle for all the refuse of the city. Here the dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and all kinds of filth, were cast and consumed by fire kept always burning. It thus in process of time became the image of the place of everlasting destruction. In this sense it is used by our Lord in Matthew 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5. In these passages, and also in James 3:6, the word is uniformly rendered “hell,” the Revised Version placing “Gehenna” in the margin. (See HELL; HINNOM .)
So, Gehenna was, to quote Rob Bell, both a physical reality and a future destiny. He also suggests (and I can’t find much on this) that there was probably literally much “gnashing of teeth” by the dogs around gehenna. “Gnashing of teeth” seems like an idiom to represent resentment, jealousy or anger, as far as I can tell. Which would make sense. Animals “gnash their teeth” as they fight
More later. I plan to look at each of the verses that you gave me.
NOW–Back to this post. Interesting stuff. Where did our orthodox doctrine of hell come from? This is something I’m currenlty seeking wisdom on.
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